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| Joe -- Back in the day. |
My novel Chapel Street was inspired by my experiences growing up in a "haunted" house at 21 St. Helens Avenue* in the Northeast Baltimore neighborhood of Lauraville. This series of blogs provides an oral history of the actual haunting that inspired the book.
Like Lisa, the subject of my previous interview, Joe is not a member of the Murphy family. He is a friend of my brother John. He and his late brother Jeff spent so much time at the house that my mother periodically called her fifth son. I was anxious to talk with him because there was a period when he spent more time in the house than I did! This interview was scheduled and delayed many times because of health issues, but I am happy Joe finally felt good enough to finally talk. He had some interesting experiences.
The interview was conducted on Zoom. My niece Emily kindly transcribed it. It has been edited for clarity. I also edited out all last names except Murphy.
Here's a clip from the interview:
SEAN: First, Joe, good to see you.
JOE: Good to see you. I had two seizures, so I'm lucky to be here.
SEAN: We know you're lucky to be here.
CLARA: You're like my next, another son. Number five son.
SEAN: So Joe, tell us your name and how you became aware, became friendly with the Murphy family and started to hang out at 21 St. Helen's Ave.
JOE: Hm. I was hanging out at - it was John - I mean, Brian tried to get me in a fight with Jason, and then I started hanging out at the ball field, and everybody started playing ball, and then Brian - then John Murphy came down, and then he started playing some ball, so I got to meet him. And I was older, I was older than everybody, so I basically was better than everybody. But I mean, it was a fun time. And I got to learn, I got to meet John and go to his house, and I started spending the night over his house and going up in the - the first time I spent the night in his house was spending the night up in the computer room, which was up right adjacent to your room, what was the sewing room, the sewing room, the computer room where the computer was. He used to go downstairs for a while and get drinks and stuff like that. I never really saw much when I was up there. I mean, I felt weird feelings.
SEAN: So when did you - when you first became aware of things, were you told about it first, or did you experience it first?
JOE: Well, I experienced it first. It was one of the first things I saw, when I got a little bit older and we started hanging out there with, like, John Murphy's crew and his party crew and all his party friends, and we were all hanging out. And one of the things, the first thing I saw when we were playing football and all, we had just got done playing football, we were all tired, and I came in and I was talking to Doug Murphy**, and he was always sitting in that chair, and there was a mirror behind him in the chair, and I was looking in the mirror and the - there's a lantern behind the mirror.
SEAN: In the -
JOE: Yeah, there was a lantern, and the lantern was swaying back and forth. I was like, what the hell? I was like, who the hell - somebody must have hit it on the way in. Somebody must have hit it and made it go back and forth.
CLARA: Was that out in the hallway?
JOE: Hm?
CLARA: The one that was out in the hallway?
JOE: Yeah, yeah. You could see it through the mirror.
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| This is chandelier Joe saw moving. |
CLARA: Right.
JOE: But then I looked, I turned around to look at it, I turned around to look at it and it was - it wasn't swaying anymore, it was straight. I was like, what the fuck? What the hell?
SEAN: And then when you looked back in the mirror, was it still swinging?
JOE: When I looked back in the mirror, it was still straight. So I looked back at it again and it was - I looked back out of the mirror and it was still straight, and then when I looked back in the mirror again, it was all the way sideways. I was like, oh, shit, what the - what the hell?
SEAN: Was it, like, stationary sideways?
JOE: Yeah, yeah.
CLARA: He's talking about the one that was out in the hallway.
SEAN: Yeah, exactly.
CLARA: Not the one that was in the living room.
SEAN: Yeah, I know. Yeah so -
JOE: I didn't believe what I was seeing. I mean, I was like, there's something. I mean, I'm not seeing what I'm seeing. I mean, I turned around and looked behind me and it was straight.
CLARA: That thing weighed a ton, too. That was stained glass and it was iron.
JOE: Was it? Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, I turned around behind me and looked and it was straight, and when I looked in the mirror and it was straight again.
SEAN: Yeah, other people have seen that swing, too, you know, when it shouldn't have been, or when it wasn't. So did you mention that to anybody? Did you mention that to my father, Doug Murphy?
JOE: Not to Doug, no. To a few of people though, a few people have heard. I mean, I was telling stories about the shit that we heard and seen. But I mean, that's - not Doug, though. Doug didn't believe in much of it, you know what I'm saying?
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| Here's a photo Joe took of Doug. He is sitting in the chair and mirror is above him. |
CLARA: No, I don't think he did.
SEAN: No, he didn't.
CLARA: You're right with that, Joe.
SEAN: So did you mention that to John?
JOE: Yeah, yeah.
SEAN: What did he say?
JOE: Oh, he didn't care that much. He was like, yeah, okay, that's cool. Because at that time, the piano was doing its own thing. It was like, ding ding.
SEAN: You heard the piano playing?
JOE: Oh, yeah. Once in a while you'd hear the piano, the piano playing downstairs. This was early. It didn't happen like that much later. It happened more earlier, like when we were younger. But I didn't hear anything when I was old, when we were older.
SEAN: Now, when the piano played, did it play a song or did it just like play notes?
JOE: I couldn't tell. I think a song, one of them. One of them was a song, but the rest of them was just notes. Just [mimics piano notes]. It might have been a little song, a little beginning of a song. And the other one was long. But I mean, I couldn't tell what it was playing. But it was some crazy shit. It was pretty crazy long. I mean, I always thought that someone was messing around.
SEAN: Now, did you ever hear - you know, we had the organ. Was the organ still there when you were hanging out?
JOE: The organ?
SEAN: You know, the organ that was also on the first floor? The pump organ?
CLARA: I don't think that was there the whole time.
JOE: No.
SEAN: Okay. I was wondering if you ever heard the pump organ playing.
JOE: No, I don't remember any organ.
SEAN: Okay. That was probably before your time.
JOE: Yeah, I don't remember that. That was crazy.
SEAN: Mark destroyed the pump organ.
CLARA: I told him.
SEAN: Yeah, he was given permission to.
CLARA: I told him he could do that.
JOE: I remember when the basement was filled with nothing but a pool table and poop.
CLARA: Ping-pong table.
SEAN: Ping-pong table and poop.
JOE: Pool table, and you could walk around and play pool while smelling poop.
SEAN: Yeah.
CLARA: Oh, there was a pool table there for a while.
SEAN: Yeah, so - yeah, first we had a ping-pong table.
CLARA: And then there was a pool table.
SEAN: Yeah.
CLARA: You remember more than I do, Joe.
SEAN: So what was the next major thing you saw that was supernatural of nature in the house?
JOE: Let's see, let's see. We have the bathroom closet.
CLARA: Oh, the bathroom closet. Everybody's favorite closet.
SEAN: So what happened with the bathroom closet?
JOE: Oh, man, that was open. Every time you closed it, it was always open a little bit. Have it open a crack, it would be open a crack, you'd close it. It was like there was - I mean, you'd close it securely and it would be open a crack, or open even all the way. The door would just be open. And I'd be like, what the? Who could have gone in here? And you'd always feel like someone was watching you from inside there. You always thought something was watching you from inside there and you, like, wanted to have a weapon on you, like, in case something jumped you out of the closet.
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: But yeah, I never heard anything in there, but it was crazy. It was weird. That door and the bathroom door, the bathroom door would be open and closed, and then the door to the upstairs. The door to the upstairs was always open and closed. It was like inviting you to come up. It was like, every time you come out, it was like opening, it wanted you to come up there.
I remember, that's another thing that brings me to that, is the time when I heard Ms. Murphy. And that was like, I was like, "Ms. Murphy," and I came in, and I was like, "Ms. Murphy," and I came in, I think it was the living room or something. And yeah it was in - I came into the kitchen, and that was like, when you weren't in there, I went up to the second floor, like the landing, I was like, "Ms. Murphy." "I'm up here, come up here." And I came up to the landing, and I went to go up to the upstairs, I opened up the door, and I was like, "Ms. Murphy?" And you were like, "Come on up," and I was like, holy shit. I was like, wait a minute, and then, I started to come up the steps. And then I felt like a weird feeling, and I was like, "Ms. Murphy," and then you didn't say anything. And I was like, what the hell? And I was like, "Ms. Murphy," and then you didn't say anything again. So I was like, I went back downstairs, and then you were coming in the front door. I was like what the - oh, shit, man. That scared the shit out of me after that.
CLARA: I had the opposite experience.
SEAN: With your brother, though.
CLARA: With Jeff.
JOE: Did you?
CLARA: I mean, it wasn't Jeff, though.
JOE: Yeah, oh, yeah?
CLARA: Jeff saying, "Mrs. Murphy," and I was like, "Come on in." "Mrs. Murphy," "Come on in Jeff." And then coming up the step, and then I realized somebody was coming up the steps.
JOE: Shit.
CLARA: I went screaming out of the house that time.
JOE: Shit. Yeah.
SEAN: So in other words, you communicated with it, was you heard a voice, you actually heard it imitate my mother's voice.
JOE: Oh, yeah, yeah. I just thought it was her. I almost went all the way up there. I don't know what would have happened if I went all the way up there. But I was like, that was very - I knew about shit like that so I didn't - I didn't mess around.
SEAN: Now, at this point, did you mention that story to John?
JOE: Yeah, I told that to John, too. Yeah, I've told him about that one. There's a few stories I don't know if you want me to even tell.
SEAN: Oh, yeah, tell us all the stories you have. I know you wrote - you've had some health issues, but before you had the health issues, you wrote down - you made a list of -
JOE: Memories.
SEAN: Yeah. Feel free to read, we'll ask you questions.
JOE: There's the one that's the drummer. I call it the drummer because I know Ms. Murphy remembers this, when we were sitting there about 4:00 o'clock in the morning and then someone started drumming on John's door like they had a drum set. It was like [mimics drum roll] and then you were like, Natalie stop it. And she's like, it's not me! And it was like, going to stop finally, and everybody just stood there like, what the hell do we do? And nobody did anything. Like, somebody opened the door to look out, and nobody was there. And I don't know if you remember that or not, Ms. Murphy.
CLARA: That, more than once.
SEAN: Yeah, that happened with me and that happened at other times. You know, John in his interview, I don't know if you saw it, said that that happened, you know, a few times. He said it could be quite terrifying.
CLARA: Yes, that was terrifying.
JOE: I was in the room, I had a few friends in the room, they were all like, what the hell's going on? It was like, it was drumming so fast, it was more than humanly possible.
CLARA: Did you ever actually see anything?
JOE: No, just heard it on the other side.
CLARA: No -
SEAN: No, not then, bit in general?
JOE: Hm. That's hard to say. Did I see anything...
SEAN: Well, you saw that, you know... You never saw, like, shadows or anything?
SEAN: Or red eyes or...
JOE: I can't remember.
CLARA: Yeah.
SEAN: Well, continue down your list, the list of things you have.
JOE: Okay. Yeah. When that was - the weight bar, I mean the weight bar was thrown from all the way across the room into the door, which is impossible. It had 150, 250 pounds on it. And I mean, I know it was impossible for you to pick that bar up, take it over the waterbed and then put it against the door. We couldn't get in the door. We couldn't get in the door and nobody could get in the door. Finally Scott Sims -
CLARA: Was that who went out on the roof and went in?
JOE: Yeah, Scott --- went out on the roof and went around and finally moved the weight bar out of the way so we could get in the door. And we got in the door and we were like, what the hell?
CLARA: Was that when - did you hear it from downstairs?
JOE: Yeah, we heard this big boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. And I'm like, what the hell? We went to try to get in the room, we couldn't get in the room. I mean, we had Jeff, we had everybody. I almost broke the door off the hinges. It wouldn't. I mean it had a weight bar against it.
CLARA: It was solid. Those - they were solid wood doors.
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: Not only that, it had that weight bar.
CLARA: Yeah, that weight.
JOE: That weight on it and everything. It was not going. It was pinned - the weight bar was pinned against the water bed. It was not going anywhere.
SEAN: So what was the impression of that? What did people think? Did that lead to a discussion about other events or anything that was going on there?
JOE: Yeah, well, it probably did. I mean, I can't really remember.
SEAN: Yeah. But this was stuff that was witnessed by many people. This is not stuff that's been happening to you, generally speaking, while you were alone there. This was, you know as you said, Scott was there, Jeff was there, John was there. I believe my father was there on the first floor as well?
CLARA: I was there, too. I was there.
SEAN: You were there for that event?
CLARA: I was home when that happened, yeah.
JOE: Man, there was only one apparition thing I can think of, but I don't know if I really remember it or saw it.
SEAN: What are you thinking, then?
JOE: I was coming up the top of the steps, like the step on the landing, the first landing. I was going to go up the next steps and I saw what looked like a shadow figure and it just real ran into your father's room. He wasn't alive anymore. But it was just, like, tall. It was just real quickly. I thought I saw it. I don't even know if I saw it. I mean it was so quick. It was there for a second, it stood there for a second, and it went, shoom.
SEAN: Was it a human shape or more like a -
JOE: Yeah.
SEAN: It was a human shape?
JOE: Yup.
SEAN: Now, here's a question. Would you say that it was male or female, or you couldn't tell?
JOE: Male.
SEAN: Okay.
JOE: It had on, like, an old style dress.
SEAN: Did it have a face?
JOE: Nah, I couldn't see any face. It was all black.
CLARA: There you go. That's it. Everybody's seen that one.
JOE: That's great. That's just out of the blue. I didn't think I saw anything, really.
SEAN: So what other stories do you have? It's good to hear that. You see, I'm looking at this the way somebody would be studying a new species of ants. I'm trying to get everyone's opinion, trying to gauge what everyone saw, what characteristics it had, what it looked like, how it manifested itself, so I'm glad you shared that with us. So I know you have more items on your list.
JOE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that John Murphy - that's the thing, this is the thing about John. John's incident. I don't know if he told you about it because he didn't want - he didn't like what happened. He said he looked up and there was a rotting corpse in his chair, in a chair. I don't know if he hold you about that.
SEAN: No.
JOE: I doubt he did. He woke up and there was a rotting corpse in his chair and he ran out of the house, and he wouldn't stay in the house for a few days, or he wouldn't stay downstairs for a few days.
SEAN: Was this in the second floor bedroom or the basement?
JOE: The basement. He was in the bedroom in the basement.
SEAN: I think he did - he did mention that, but then he said he felt it was just - later he thought it was an hallucination.
JOE: No, no, because the thing is, because he even said he smelled rotten meat. And then one week - like three days later, and then like five days later, we came over and we smelled more than rotten meat. It smelled like decay and death.
CLARA: I hated that basement.
SEAN: Yeah.
CLARA: That bedroom, I could never even go into.
SEAN: It was too dark with that - there was little -
CLARA: It just was - it gave me the creeps, just going near that room. The basement, I felt very uncomfortable, after Mark*** fixed it and all. Sometimes when there was a real bad storm and Ginger was afraid, we would go down into the basement, and I couldn't stand it. I just could not stand being - I always - it was like something was always looking at me there. And I wouldn't go near that bedroom.
JOE: Yeah, I don't think John ever spent another night in there.
CLARA: I don't think Mark ever slept in there much. I mean, Mark built it as a bedroom, but I think he told me one time he couldn't sleep in there.
JOE: Yeah, well, it smelled bad down there for a long time. At least a week or two. But yeah, I don't think he ever mentioned that.
SEAN: Yeah, he did bring that up. But what's the next one?
JOE: Another one I know he didn't mention because I don't think he even saw it or I even told him about it or told anybody about it because it was embarrassing kind of. But it was Mark. We went out - we were having a party out front like we would. You know, we used to have those parties out front, out on the porch, and everybody would be on the porch having a party, and we decided we wanted to go out into the garage into the '44 Dodge and smoke some weed. So we were, like, six of us or seven of us, go back there, and as soon as we get back there, we get halfway back there and we see Mark is naked and he's digging in the dirt with a knife. We're like, what the fuck? And I was like, everybody back up. I was like, holy shit. And everybody, like, turned around, and like, holy shit, we don't want to see this, you know what I mean? This guy, we're all young, like 17, 20, 19 or 18.
CLARA: Mark did do that.
SEAN: Yeah.
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| Mark Brendan Murphy |
JOE: So he was digging in the dirt or mud, whatever. So later on we were upstairs in the house, and Jeff went downstairs, Jeff decided to go downstairs for some reason to check on Mark. And then I - he went downstairs, but he didn't go all the way in, and I went in and I looked in the room to see him, and he had all the lights off except for one light, one light that was - he had a linoleum floor all covered in dirt except for one little round spot that was clean, and then he was in the middle of the round spot and the light was shining down on the round spot, perfectly covering - perfectly covering the spot, and he was in the middle of the spot praying to something. So I ain't never told anybody that.
SEAN: Now, what - do you remember any of the words he was using?
JOE: No, he never said any words. He just had his hands together. I don't know if he was talking to God, I don't know if he was talking to something else. But I said to my brother, I said, "Come here for a second," and he was like, "What?" And I said "Come here," and he came and he looked and he was like, "Oh, my God." And then when he turned around, there were other people trying to come down the steps, and we were like, we turned them all around, we're like, "No, get upstairs, get upstairs, get upstairs." We wouldn't let anybody else come downstairs to see that shit. But that's something I've never - that's something I haven't told many people.
SEAN: I'm not surprised to hear that.
JOE: I haven't told many people that one.
SEAN: Well, this is the first time we've heard that, right?
CLARA: Well, I know that Mark was outside nude a couple times because I know Art took him in his house already when he was like that.
SEAN: Yeah, plus when he was living up by the field, up by Grandma Murphy's, he used to go onto the field nude, too, when he was living with Beth.
CLARA: Mental problem.
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: I don't know. I mean, he might have been -
SEAN: I'll make note of that in the transcript.
JOE: Praying to God, you know what I mean, because he was into both. I mean, he wasn't into both, he was - he was just fighting demons, you know? So he might have been praying to God at that point. You know, that might have been it. Trying to get salvation. You know what I mean?
CLARA: Yeah. So did your ever have any talks to Mark - with Mark about this? Not that specific instance, but something in the house? Did you ever talk to Mark about that?
JOE: Hell, no. I didn't want to know when I saw that. I mean, I was afraid he might strangle - try to strangle or kill me.
SEAN: Yeah, someone digging into the dirt with a knife like that, I could see how that would be frightening and sort of ruin the buzz.
JOE: Well, not that part, but the part with just seeing him doing that, him sitting there on his knees, naked in a kind of circle that he made, and the rest is all dirt. That was freaky as shit.
SEAN: Yeah, I could imagine.
CLARA: Well, it was good of you to turn everybody around.
SEAN: Yeah.
CLARA: That was a good thing you did, Joe.
SEAN: So tell us what else happened.
JOE: Scott Sims, oh, man. He went in there alone the one time, and he was like, "I'm not afraid." And all the light were off.
SEAN: Well, set this up. You guys were at Scott's house or something and you came back and all the light were out?
JOE: Yeah, we came back and all the lights were out.
SEAN: I just want to make a note. You know, I told you I didn't want to hear the stories until we were recording them, but you told me this story when we talked a little while ago, that, you know, all the lights were out, and John had previously said, you know, he didn't like going in the house when all the lights were out. So you guys went in through the kitchen or whatever. You start at the beginning.
JOE: Yeah, well, at the beginning, we were down at Scott's new apartment. Somebody actually rented him an apartment. There were beer cans, there were beer bottles on every - if you took a table, you put a beer bottle on every part of the table, and then he went to put another beer bottle on there, and another one fell off the other side. You couldn't fit anymore on, you know what I'm saying?
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: You couldn't - everywhere you went to put another beer bottle, another one would fall off. That's how many beer bottles were on the table, okay? And Jason got mad at Scott, picked him up and slammed him on the beer bottles. I've never seen anything like it. It must have hurt very bad, and all the beer bottles went everywhere. Half of them were half full, half of them had cigarette butts and all kinds of stuff in them. It was - everything went everywhere. I mean, we all got out of there immediately. Scott and everybody came up there and we all went to John's house.
And we went - when we left John's house, a lot of the lights were on, and when we came there, all of the lights were off. We were like, what the hell? And Scott - and we were like, "Man, I ain't going in there. I'm not going." And Scott is like, "Oh, I'll do it. I'm not afraid. I'll turn all the lights on." And he went in there, and then we were like, "Go ahead in, go ahead in. Turn on the main, turn on the kitchen light, and then turn on that light." And then he went in, he went into the kitchen and turned on the light, and he immediately came running out and he said - he came running out, he's like, "I'm not going back in there." We're like, "What's in there, what's in there?" He's like, "There's something in the kitchen, there's something in the kitchen." He's like, "There's something big. It's a monster, it's a beast." We were like, "What?" I was like, "Bullshit." We all went in there and we didn't see anything. But he was scared as hell. After that, he was like, he was just dead scared, man. He said he saw, like, a - it was just like a human. It was like a beast. I mean, like a damn beast you see in a cartoon, that's what he said. He said it was like a monster. But it was all black.
SEAN: All black. But you said once you went in there, you and your brother and all, and you heard a door slam up on the third floor, footsteps coming down the steps, then down the steps to the landing....
JOE: I forgot about that.
SEAN: Okay.
JOE: That was what made us run down to Scott's house in the first place. Is we came in there, and yeah, the lights were on, but we heard this boom upstairs, and then we heard this [mimics pounding] and something was running down the stairs, and everybody just started - we were like - everybody just started fighting for each other - fighting over each other to get to the door first. It was like funny as shit. It was like Laurel and Hardy. It was like, everybody was pushing each other out of the way to get to the front door. It was like, get out of my way. Finally we got out of the front door without the thing getting to us. But that's when we ran down and went to Jason, he was walking up the street or something, but he wasn't there when that happened. Because he would have never made it down the stairs. He was too fat, but it would have killed him.
SEAN: So how far did it come down the stairs, from the third floor? Did it get to the landing?
JOE: I think it got all the way to the front door. I don't know, man. It was like it slammed the front door on us or something. I was scared as shit, man. I was like, I think it slammed the front door on us, slammed it shut on us. I'm not sure. It was like, get the fuck out.
SEAN: So then you brought Scott up and he went in and turned on the lights and saw something in the kitchen on the first floor.
JOE: That was because we had already been - we had been drinking for a while. We'd been drinking for, like, four hours and were like, oh, yeah, we ain't scared of shit. We were drunk, we were drinking, we'll go in there, we'll fight this damn thing. And then Scott's like, yeah. And when we got there, all the lights were off, and we were like, oh, shit, fuck this. Screw that. I'm not doing it. And Scott's like, "I'll go in there." He was drunker than everybody, of course. He comes running out, "Ah! There's a super beast in there? Holy shit, man!" And I think he said it had red eyes. I wish I could call him. You need to get a hold of -
SEAN: So any other tales?
JOE: Um, let's see. Let's see. I played in the computer room.
CLARA: Did anything ever happen when you were in John's room, like, playing on the computer?
JOE: Well, yeah, there was a lot of things, but it's hard for me to remember because I didn't write them down. I've had these seizures. They might come back to me, but shoo. Man, there used to be, like - used to be pings that would be on the floor. Different things moved in different places. Like, your drink would be in one spot, and then next thing you know, it's in another spot. It was just, you know, there was some crazy stuff that happened. But it could have just been that, I mean, that I forgot I put it there. Just a lot of weird feelings, too. Especially at nighttime. I mean, a lot of times at night, waking up and just like - and especially going to the bathroom at night. Oh, my gosh, and going to that second floor bathroom. And you always come out, and you know you closed the door to the upstairs, you know you closed it because you don't want anything coming out of that damn upstairs, and you know you closed it and it's open. When you go to the bathroom. I mean, sometimes you go to the bathroom, come out and you closed it on the way in to the bathroom, come out and it's open again. And you're like, oh, my gosh. And you just wrote it off. You're just like, yup, this bitch is haunted as a son of a bitch. I would just close it again and go back to sleep.
SEAN: So did it speak to you at any other time than the time it used, you know, my mother's voice? Do you remember ever hearing it speak again?
JOE: I'm going to have to think. I could have swore it spoke to me in Mark's voice, but I can't think to it. I can't remember.
CLARA: It may have. It was good at imitating voices.
JOE: Yeah.
CLARA: I think it knew everybody's name.
SEAN: Did it speak to you - I know you're trying to remember, but did it speak to you in Mark's voice, do you think, while Mark was alive or after he had died?
JOE: It would be while he was alive.
SEAN: Oh, yeah, it always spoke in people's voices while they were alive. Never took a dead person's voice.
CLARA: No, no.
JOE: I don't remember him ever speaking when he was dead. But yeah, that's - that's crazy, man. I don't know, I'll have to try and remember some more stuff. But that's all I got written down.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that was all very helpful. So there's a few points I want to ask in conclusion. What do you think it was in that house?
JOE: What do I think it was?
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: It was a demon. Somebody summoned a demon. That's all. To me, that's all it is, is it wants to hurt people.
CLARA: Do you think it was more than one thing?
JOE: It wants to make their life, I mean, hell, if you let it.
CLARA: Do you think there was more than one thing in there? A demon and something else, or just a demon, or more than one demon?
SEAN: Or more than one demon? How many entities were in the house?
JOE: How many entities?
SEAN: Yeah, do you think there was more than one?
JOE: I just think it was one. I think it was one that traveled around. One that traveled - I mean, traveled around to a few different houses. A few other people probably had problems and they just don't say anything.
CLARA: Why do you think it traveled around?
JOE: It just seems like it did. I mean, I don't know.
CLARA: No, impressions are, you know...
SEAN: I mean, did you feel some days it was there and some days it wasn't there?
JOE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, definitely.
CLARA: Did it seem to you like sometimes it was more active than others?
JOE: Yeah. Like, I didn't -
CLARA: Sometimes it was more active than others and then nothing for a while?
JOE: Yeah. I didn't have a problem in the computer room up there, I mean hardly, except for the little creepy feelings, and I didn't have a problem down in the basement with the poop and the dog. I mean, with whatever his name was.
CLARA: Alex.
SEAN: Now, what - do you remember any of the words he was using?
JOE: No, he never said any words. He just had his hands together. I don't know if he was talking to God, I don't know if he was talking to something else. But I said to my brother, I said, "Come here for a second," and he was like, "What?" And I said "Come here," and he came and he looked and he was like, "Oh, my God." And then when he turned around, there were other people trying to come down the steps, and we were like, we turned them all around, we're like, "No, get upstairs, get upstairs, get upstairs." We wouldn't let anybody else come downstairs to see that shit. But that's something I've never - that's something I haven't told many people.
SEAN: I'm not surprised to hear that.
JOE: I haven't told many people that one.
SEAN: Well, this is the first time we've heard that, right?
CLARA: Well, I know that Mark was outside nude a couple times because I know Art took him in his house already when he was like that.
SEAN: Yeah, plus when he was living up by the field, up by Grandma Murphy's, he used to go onto the field nude, too, when he was living with Beth.
CLARA: Mental problem.
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: I don't know. I mean, he might have been -
SEAN: I'll make note of that in the transcript.
JOE: Praying to God, you know what I mean, because he was into both. I mean, he wasn't into both, he was - he was just fighting demons, you know? So he might have been praying to God at that point. You know, that might have been it. Trying to get salvation. You know what I mean?
CLARA: Yeah. So did your ever have any talks to Mark - with Mark about this? Not that specific instance, but something in the house? Did you ever talk to Mark about that?
JOE: Hell, no. I didn't want to know when I saw that. I mean, I was afraid he might strangle - try to strangle or kill me.
SEAN: Yeah, someone digging into the dirt with a knife like that, I could see how that would be frightening and sort of ruin the buzz.
JOE: Well, not that part, but the part with just seeing him doing that, him sitting there on his knees, naked in a kind of circle that he made, and the rest is all dirt. That was freaky as shit.
SEAN: Yeah, I could imagine.
CLARA: Well, it was good of you to turn everybody around.
SEAN: Yeah.
CLARA: That was a good thing you did, Joe.
SEAN: So tell us what else happened.
JOE: Scott Sims, oh, man. He went in there alone the one time, and he was like, "I'm not afraid." And all the light were off.
SEAN: Well, set this up. You guys were at Scott's house or something and you came back and all the light were out?
JOE: Yeah, we came back and all the lights were out.
SEAN: I just want to make a note. You know, I told you I didn't want to hear the stories until we were recording them, but you told me this story when we talked a little while ago, that, you know, all the lights were out, and John had previously said, you know, he didn't like going in the house when all the lights were out. So you guys went in through the kitchen or whatever. You start at the beginning.
JOE: Yeah, well, at the beginning, we were down at Scott's new apartment. Somebody actually rented him an apartment. There were beer cans, there were beer bottles on every - if you took a table, you put a beer bottle on every part of the table, and then he went to put another beer bottle on there, and another one fell off the other side. You couldn't fit anymore on, you know what I'm saying?
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: You couldn't - everywhere you went to put another beer bottle, another one would fall off. That's how many beer bottles were on the table, okay? And Jason got mad at Scott, picked him up and slammed him on the beer bottles. I've never seen anything like it. It must have hurt very bad, and all the beer bottles went everywhere. Half of them were half full, half of them had cigarette butts and all kinds of stuff in them. It was - everything went everywhere. I mean, we all got out of there immediately. Scott and everybody came up there and we all went to John's house.
And we went - when we left John's house, a lot of the lights were on, and when we came there, all of the lights were off. We were like, what the hell? And Scott - and we were like, "Man, I ain't going in there. I'm not going." And Scott is like, "Oh, I'll do it. I'm not afraid. I'll turn all the lights on." And he went in there, and then we were like, "Go ahead in, go ahead in. Turn on the main, turn on the kitchen light, and then turn on that light." And then he went in, he went into the kitchen and turned on the light, and he immediately came running out and he said - he came running out, he's like, "I'm not going back in there." We're like, "What's in there, what's in there?" He's like, "There's something in the kitchen, there's something in the kitchen." He's like, "There's something big. It's a monster, it's a beast." We were like, "What?" I was like, "Bullshit." We all went in there and we didn't see anything. But he was scared as hell. After that, he was like, he was just dead scared, man. He said he saw, like, a - it was just like a human. It was like a beast. I mean, like a damn beast you see in a cartoon, that's what he said. He said it was like a monster. But it was all black.
SEAN: All black. But you said once you went in there, you and your brother and all, and you heard a door slam up on the third floor, footsteps coming down the steps, then down the steps to the landing....
JOE: I forgot about that.
SEAN: Okay.
JOE: That was what made us run down to Scott's house in the first place. Is we came in there, and yeah, the lights were on, but we heard this boom upstairs, and then we heard this [mimics pounding] and something was running down the stairs, and everybody just started - we were like - everybody just started fighting for each other - fighting over each other to get to the door first. It was like funny as shit. It was like Laurel and Hardy. It was like, everybody was pushing each other out of the way to get to the front door. It was like, get out of my way. Finally we got out of the front door without the thing getting to us. But that's when we ran down and went to Jason, he was walking up the street or something, but he wasn't there when that happened. Because he would have never made it down the stairs. He was too fat, but it would have killed him.
SEAN: So how far did it come down the stairs, from the third floor? Did it get to the landing?
JOE: I think it got all the way to the front door. I don't know, man. It was like it slammed the front door on us or something. I was scared as shit, man. I was like, I think it slammed the front door on us, slammed it shut on us. I'm not sure. It was like, get the fuck out.
SEAN: So then you brought Scott up and he went in and turned on the lights and saw something in the kitchen on the first floor.
JOE: That was because we had already been - we had been drinking for a while. We'd been drinking for, like, four hours and were like, oh, yeah, we ain't scared of shit. We were drunk, we were drinking, we'll go in there, we'll fight this damn thing. And then Scott's like, yeah. And when we got there, all the lights were off, and we were like, oh, shit, fuck this. Screw that. I'm not doing it. And Scott's like, "I'll go in there." He was drunker than everybody, of course. He comes running out, "Ah! There's a super beast in there? Holy shit, man!" And I think he said it had red eyes. I wish I could call him. You need to get a hold of -
SEAN: So any other tales?
JOE: Um, let's see. Let's see. I played in the computer room.
CLARA: Did anything ever happen when you were in John's room, like, playing on the computer?
JOE: Well, yeah, there was a lot of things, but it's hard for me to remember because I didn't write them down. I've had these seizures. They might come back to me, but shoo. Man, there used to be, like - used to be pings that would be on the floor. Different things moved in different places. Like, your drink would be in one spot, and then next thing you know, it's in another spot. It was just, you know, there was some crazy stuff that happened. But it could have just been that, I mean, that I forgot I put it there. Just a lot of weird feelings, too. Especially at nighttime. I mean, a lot of times at night, waking up and just like - and especially going to the bathroom at night. Oh, my gosh, and going to that second floor bathroom. And you always come out, and you know you closed the door to the upstairs, you know you closed it because you don't want anything coming out of that damn upstairs, and you know you closed it and it's open. When you go to the bathroom. I mean, sometimes you go to the bathroom, come out and you closed it on the way in to the bathroom, come out and it's open again. And you're like, oh, my gosh. And you just wrote it off. You're just like, yup, this bitch is haunted as a son of a bitch. I would just close it again and go back to sleep.
SEAN: So did it speak to you at any other time than the time it used, you know, my mother's voice? Do you remember ever hearing it speak again?
JOE: I'm going to have to think. I could have swore it spoke to me in Mark's voice, but I can't think to it. I can't remember.
CLARA: It may have. It was good at imitating voices.
JOE: Yeah.
CLARA: I think it knew everybody's name.
SEAN: Did it speak to you - I know you're trying to remember, but did it speak to you in Mark's voice, do you think, while Mark was alive or after he had died?
JOE: It would be while he was alive.
SEAN: Oh, yeah, it always spoke in people's voices while they were alive. Never took a dead person's voice.
CLARA: No, no.
JOE: I don't remember him ever speaking when he was dead. But yeah, that's - that's crazy, man. I don't know, I'll have to try and remember some more stuff. But that's all I got written down.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that was all very helpful. So there's a few points I want to ask in conclusion. What do you think it was in that house?
JOE: What do I think it was?
SEAN: Yeah.
JOE: It was a demon. Somebody summoned a demon. That's all. To me, that's all it is, is it wants to hurt people.
CLARA: Do you think it was more than one thing?
JOE: It wants to make their life, I mean, hell, if you let it.
CLARA: Do you think there was more than one thing in there? A demon and something else, or just a demon, or more than one demon?
SEAN: Or more than one demon? How many entities were in the house?
JOE: How many entities?
SEAN: Yeah, do you think there was more than one?
JOE: I just think it was one. I think it was one that traveled around. One that traveled - I mean, traveled around to a few different houses. A few other people probably had problems and they just don't say anything.
CLARA: Why do you think it traveled around?
JOE: It just seems like it did. I mean, I don't know.
CLARA: No, impressions are, you know...
SEAN: I mean, did you feel some days it was there and some days it wasn't there?
JOE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, definitely.
CLARA: Did it seem to you like sometimes it was more active than others?
JOE: Yeah. Like, I didn't -
CLARA: Sometimes it was more active than others and then nothing for a while?
JOE: Yeah. I didn't have a problem in the computer room up there, I mean hardly, except for the little creepy feelings, and I didn't have a problem down in the basement with the poop and the dog. I mean, with whatever his name was.
CLARA: Alex.
 |
| Alex |
JOE: Alex, yeah. Then he finally fixed the basement up, but he fixed it up really nice, but I don't know what the hell.
CLARA: But it was always creepy in the bathroom.
JOE: Yeah. Shit, in which bathroom?
CLARA: The second floor.
SEAN: Second floor.
JOE: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. That was bad.
CLARA: That bathroom was always creepy.
JOE: I don't think I ever even took a shower in there. Ever, ever, ever.
SEAN: And funny, it stayed creepy even after you, like, remodeled it.
CLARA: Right.
SEAN: It isn't like remodeling it, you know, made it uncomfortable, made it leave.
CLARA: No.
SEAN: You know, so. Yeah, the bathroom, that bathroom closet.
CLARA: Everybody agreed.
JOE: I heard that somebody got killed after they moved in, or after you moved, something about the garage door fell down on them.
SEAN: I never heard anything like that. I think the people who moved in after us, one of them had health issues, but they didn't die.
JOE: Oh.
SEAN: There's some things that are interesting about the people who moved in after, but I'm still investigating that now. I think the next one of these I do is going to answer some of those questions, after I talk to you. But I wanted to talk to you first, because I think in the late '90s through the early 2000s, you certainly spent more time in that house than I did. And also it spoke to you and it never spoke to me in an audible voice.
JOE: Yeah, yeah.
SEAN: It communicated with me, but it never spoke to me.
JOE: Yeah, right. I never - these damn seizures, luckily I wrote all that down. I mean, because I would have forgotten most of it. I just happened to have ideas. Like, let me write this down just in case, just as a - I mean I might have lost a few things, but they'll probably come back to me.
CLARA: Good seeing you, Joe.
SEAN: Good seeing you, Joe. We're hoping you're feeling better.
CLARA: I hope you do. I hope you get better.
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| Joe Today |
Here's another clip from the interview:
Notes:
*21 St. Helens Avenue was the original address of the house when it was built. The street name and number changed over time, but I use the original address to protect the privacy of the current owners.
*21 St. Helens Avenue was the original address of the house when it was built. The street name and number changed over time, but I use the original address to protect the privacy of the current owners.
**Douglas Ernest Murphy, Sr., my father.
***Mark Brendan Murphy -- my brother who took his own life in 1999.
Additional blogs about the haunting:
Additional blogs about the haunting:
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 1, An Introduction
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 2, The House
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 3, This Is Us
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 4, Arrival
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 5, Methodology
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 6, Clara's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 7, Clara's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 8, My Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 9, My Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 10, My Tale, Pt. 3
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 11, Natalia's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 12, Natalia's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 13, John's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 14, John's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 15, Come Inside!
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 16, Marion's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 17, Marion's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 18, Jeanne's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 19, Jeanne's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 20, Lisa's Tale
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 21, Recap, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 22, Recap, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 23, Recap, Pt. 3
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 2, The House
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 3, This Is Us
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 4, Arrival
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 5, Methodology
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 6, Clara's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 7, Clara's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 8, My Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 9, My Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 10, My Tale, Pt. 3
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 11, Natalia's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 12, Natalia's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 13, John's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 14, John's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 15, Come Inside!
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 16, Marion's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 17, Marion's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 18, Jeanne's Tale, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 19, Jeanne's Tale, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 20, Lisa's Tale
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 21, Recap, Pt. 1
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 22, Recap, Pt. 2
The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 23, Recap, Pt. 3
My novel Chapel Street was inspired by the haunting. You can currently buy the Kindle and paperback at Amazon and the Nook, paperback and hardcover at Barnes & Noble.
Learn more about the book, click Here.
Listen to me read some chapters here:
Chapel Street - Prologue - My Mother
Chapel Street - Chapter 1 - RestingPlace.com
Chapel Street - Chapter 2 - Elisabetta
Chapel Street - Chapter 3 - The Upload
Chapel Street - Chapter 4 - The Kobayashi Maru
Let's stay in touch:
Chapel Street - Prologue - My Mother
Chapel Street - Chapter 1 - RestingPlace.com
Chapel Street - Chapter 2 - Elisabetta
Chapel Street - Chapter 3 - The Upload
Chapel Street - Chapter 4 - The Kobayashi Maru
Let's stay in touch:
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