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| Emily, Marion, Josh and Jeanne |
The first half of my sister's interview detailed her transaction with the entity. Her daughter Marion also described, in her interview, a perceived of offer from it. Those stories surprised me, but I must confess that I felt a similar transactional pull from the entity.
As I related in my story, I challenged it once, saying out loud, "There's nothing in here. If there was, it would turn on the light." And it did. I perceived that act as an invitation. I felt it was saying, in my mind, "Did you like that? Do you want to see what else I can do?" Fortunately, I already knew it too well to take the bait.
I had a similar experience when I began writing these blogs. I was trying to find the full tape of the EVP** my niece Natalie recorded in The Hell Room, or, as some call it, The Hell Hole. I felt a strange urge to do an EVP myself. I initially dismissed the thought since we no longer owned the house. Then, as if from an outside source, came the thought: "Don't worry. It will come to you where ever you are." For a couple of weeks, I felt intense pressure to do an EVP. When I resisted, a new thought came to me from an outside source. "Do you want to know what happened to Mark and Laurie? Go to their graves and do an EVP there and you'll find out."
I definitely wasn't going to fall for that! I knew one thing: Even if I went to the graves and got a recording, it would not be my siblings. And whatever was said would be a lie.
Those incidents prove to me that the entity is indeed intelligent. It was/is conscious of us. It watched us and studied us. It was/is willing to offer us something to get what it wanted. And what does it want? My investigation isn't over yet, but I stand by my initial thoughts. I believe it wanted to isolate us, both spiritually and psychologically, and destroy us.
It still does.
Here's part one of Jeanne's interview: The Haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue, Part 18, Jeanne's Tale, Pt. 1
Here's a clip from the second part:
My wife Deborah, and Jeanne's dog Daisy, were also present for the interview. My niece Emily kindly transcribed it. It has been edited for clarity.
SEAN: Now, did you hear furniture moving at any time?
JEANNE: You know, people talk about that. I don't know if I heard -- I don't think I actually heard furniture moving.
SEAN: Did you hear any voices like muttering but you couldn't understand what they were saying?
JEANNE: I don't know. I'd have to think about that. I'd have to think about that.
SEAN: Now, you were saying it was kind of dealing with you. This was all mental. Did you actually hear words or was it just a feeling?
JEANNE: No, it was just all in here (taps temple).
SEAN: Yes. Now, here's another thing. Did you ever feel suicidal in the house?
JEANNE: I was very suicidal in that house.
SEAN: Was there any -- did you ever attempt to kill yourself?
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: You did attempt to kill yourself?
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: Do you mind going into that?
JEANNE: Well, there were many times I felt like it and I would just do dumb things.
SEAN: What do you mean by dumb things?
JEANNE: Well, let me tell you about -- I just remember one time I had been out and I came home and it was dark and the doors were locked. And I just remember feeling like this, like rage almost or something. And then like it all taken away or something. Something really... And I went down to the basement where there were the glass louver doors and I just threw myself back into it. If you remember, those were broken.
SEAN: Yeah. Would you say that you were in control of your mind at that time?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Now, were there any other events, anything that physically happened to you that you would think, had -- you know, that was averted, obviously, because you were alive, that if it had happened, it would have looked like you had killed yourself?
JEANNE: I was -- it wasn't going to make -- it wouldn't have, like, knocked me over to make it look like a suicide. I would have killed myself. Like, it would take you to this dark place. Like, I really should have been on some meds. Yeah. It was hard. I lived my life very risky because I didn't really care.
SEAN: I will say, you were probably not the only person feeling that way in the house.
JEANNE: Yeah.
SEAN: Yeah, because -- it's hard to articulate. So did this continue, these suicidal feelings continue after, say, you left the house?
JEANNE: Well, when I left the house, then it was a whole new chapter in my life. So I had kids very quickly.
SEAN: But if you were suffering from mental illness, even in the fact that you had a new life--
JEANNE: I think it impacted me. I think depression did impact me, but never to that degree.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that's good. Now, you never discussed it with Laurie, you never discussed -- you must have discussed it with somebody, because I remember hearing stories about the organ. And I think I heard it once, but I think I only heard like a single note.
JEANNE: Yeah.
SEAN: Like a (music note).
JEANNE: So I guess at some level --
SEAN: And I'm on the third floor, so for all I know, I think the house is empty, but for all I know, someone's there.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: You know what I mean?
JEANNE: Yeah, right, so you may have heard, maybe I was down playing it and you didn't know if I was there or not.
SEAN: Yeah, or if someone just walked by -- well, it isn't like you could just walk by and play it because it was a pump organ.
JEANNE: Right. You needed your feet.
SEAN: It isn't like you could accidentally put your finger on it and play it.
JEANNE: So I guess let me clarify. I never told anyone those details. And honestly, the house had this way of like, when you'd wake up in the morning, you'd wonder if that had ever really happened. You know, it had that way. And then I'd find myself in the position, like the thing again, I'd be like, shit, it is real, or I'm remembering two things right now. Like, I don't -- so it was almost like, you had to be in that state of fear and anxiety to truly talk about it, but I never did that. Like, maybe we said like, oh, you know, the closet, watch out. But it was never detailed. I never sat with any of my siblings and said there's a thing in the closet. Like, we may have spoken generalities.
Now, my friend Beth, who's still my best friend, I would certainly talk to her about it.
SEAN: And we will try to talk to Beth about this.
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| Beth and Jeanne, in the entrance hall |
JEANNE: Yeah, good.
SEAN: Now, you did say that it was predominantly in the closet. In that area. Did you feel any other presences -- and let's keep this right now until before your trip to England.
JEANNE: Okay.
SEAN: Because I want to deal with after England at another time. Now that you're saying you had psychic powers, did you feel that there was more than one thing -- well, you did say that you felt that that thing that was over your bed was different than the thing that was in the closet.
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: Did --
JEANNE: I always just in my mind's eye, what I always thought was that it was of the land. That it was of the hill. That it started at our house or it ended at our house and it went up four houses up to the [landmark].*** That it was somehow on that hill. That's just in my mind's eye, like it was always coming from that direction.
SEAN: It's funny you say that, because I always felt the same way, too. I always thought, and later we had some evidence that it was in the house immediately next to us. But I just never felt that it was just those two houses.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: I thought it was also the four houses up to the [landmark].
JEANNE: Yeah, I felt like that too.
SEAN: We felt that independently.
JEANNE: Yeah. I mean, this is the first time I'm hearing you had that feeling, too. But I always felt like it had been some kind of a holy land or something and a group of people had lived there and -- anyway. I don't know.
SEAN: So did you ever feel that there was presence of a human ghost in the house?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Did you feel there was ever the presence of a neutral entity?
JEANNE: Maybe.
SEAN: So Laurie never discussed any of this stuff with you herself?
JEANNE: Uh-uh.
SEAN: Okay. So you went to England in what month?
JEANNE: June 26th, 1985.
SEAN: And you came back briefly after about two months?
JEANNE: August 26th, 1985.
SEAN: And then you went back to England and you met your future ex --
JEANNE: Well, I'd met him the first time.
SEAN: Okay.
JEANNE: Went to be back with him.
SEAN: Okay. And then you came back. And in the house, I would say while you were away, things had shifted at the house in a way that whatever it was in the house became more active.
JEANNE: I don't know anything, you know, about what happened when I was away. But Jon and I were actually married but we didn't tell anyone, so my mother had us in separate bedrooms, so I had my bedroom and he had the upstairs front bedroom.
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| Jeanne and her ex-husband and her in-laws. |
SEAN: Which was?
JEANNE: Which is the Hell Hole. We didn't know that at the time. This is how we found out. So of course I remember one night, I snuck up there and we were in the bed together, and I don't know if we both woke up at the same time or I don't know, maybe we hadn't even been asleep. Anyway, we were both in bed and we sat up, and I swear to God, there was a corner cupboard, closet directly in front of us.
SEAN: This was the stand up closet, not the cubbyhole, or was it the cubbyhole?
JEANNE: No, it was the stand up one. And both of us saw. It was dark, you know, it was night, both of us saw a black cat. Not a kitty, like a leopard. Like a big black cat. And it had red eyes.
SEAN: As big as a dog?
JEANNE: Bigger -- it probably -- oh, as big as a big dog, maybe. And it had red eyes. We're both sitting here watching this, seeing this happen. And it, like, started coming towards us, and my thought was, it wants my baby. I was pregnant, no one knew it, and we screamed and ran the hell out of there. And I would -- I never spent the night there again. That probably prompted us to tell everyone we were married, because we were moving out. We were looking to move out. We probably were only in there about three weeks when we came back from England before we got our apartment.
SEAN: I do want to talk something about Echodale, but before we do -- now, this thing, did it come out of the closet?
JEANNE: Yes. It was standing there. We could see it there, standing there, and it coming towards us, yes.
SEAN: And what happened? You just ran?
JEANNE: We -- I don't know, somehow a spell broke and we got the heck out of there.
SEAN: Now, would it surprise you to know that your mother also saw a large cat-like creature come out of that closet?
JEANNE: I think I'd heard that, but only since we moved out of the house.
SEAN: And other people have also seen cat-like creatures in the house.
JEANNE: And I just want to say, I had never seen a personification before this.
SEAN: Yeah. And it seems like of this large cat creature, anybody we've talked to has only seen it in the Hell Hole.
JEANNE: Right. Well, that kind of fits with what I'm saying that there were certain things in certain places. But I feel like if it was in the closet, if it was in my bedroom closet down there, it was everywhere in the house.
SEAN: That's what I was going to ask. Do you think that was the same thing?
JEANNE: No. I think they were of the same world or whatever, but no, that was a different thing.
SEAN: That's a conclusion I'm drawing. Because it seemed like this thing would manifest itself in two ways. Up in the Hell Room, Hell Hole, whatever you want to call it... It would either manifest itself as a cat or sometimes as a dark shape with red eyes. Did you ever see the red eyes in the dark shape in your bedroom?
JEANNE: No. Like I say, that thing that was there was never in anywhere else in the house. That was its own thing. And like I say, it's of the other things. Because I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if every room had its own thing because the feeling in that house -- like, that house lived a life of its own and we would skim on it, is how I feel.
SEAN: And that's how I feel, too. Now, don't think that you triggered it or my mother or Ted or me or anyone.
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: I don't think any of us triggered it. I think it was there.
JEANNE: Well, I think it was there -- oh, it was definitely there. I didn't invent it. I mean, it was there, but I think it took a curious mind and someone asking questions and the energy of a young family and a young person who's looking to find herself. Like I say, I wasn't out running around in the neighborhood. I was there at the house.
SEAN: Well, I'm not so sure, but in the case of poltergeist activities are usually associated with people, you know, like pre-teenagers.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: That seems to be the energy for a lot of poltergeist experiences.
JEANNE: Well, I think this thing, you had to have been in a certain frame of mind. I could see that people visiting the house would never know that there was anything in that house.
SEAN: Well, obviously.
JEANNE: But it was something about living there, and not only living there, but being, I don't want to say bored, but not being busy. If you were busy, if you were like, oh, I've got this to do and that to do, you wouldn't feel it. It was just when you were, like, still, is when you would feel it.
SEAN: Yeah. It is interesting, because Dougie claims to never have experienced it.
JEANNE: Uh-huh, and I believe that.
SEAN: But he was only there a couple years.
JEANNE: I don't even think he was there a couple years, was he?
SEAN: I would think that probably at least two years.
JEANNE: Yeah, but he was always out in the neighborhood. He never hung out at the house at all.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: And he was, you know, experimenting with illegal substances.
SEAN: Yeah. I know I asked you about Laurie. Did you ever talk to Mark about any of these incidences in the house?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Okay. How about your father?
JEANNE: (laughs) No.
SEAN: Okay. So you moved out, and at some point you moved to Echodale Avenue before you moved to your final house at Raspe Avenue.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Was there some sort of entity at --
JEANNE: Did somebody tell you about this?
SEAN: Yes. Was there some sort of entity at the Echodale Avenue house?
JEANNE: Well, let me tell you what I remember most. There may have been an entity there, but what was startling to me is that I have two children, and you know, we'd be outside or whatever, and then I realized that at least for the past couple weeks, I had been counting one, two, three. That there was a third one. And one day it hit, like, why am I counting three? I've only got two kids. And I don't know. And I seem to think that was more of a spirit or something of a little girl who needed to have a mommy for a little bit of time.
SEAN: Was it a little girl that looked just like Marion?
JEANNE: I don't know what she looked like. I never saw her, I always just counted her.
SEAN: Because your mother said that she saw her and that she was also at Raspe Avenue as well.
JEANNE: Oh. Oh, I was at Raspe Avenue, and I would feel three. But not the whole time, but I'd feel three kids, too. In my mind, I would count the three.
SEAN: And your mother said she was watching the kids in the basement once and she saw -- she thought Marion had gone behind the bar, and she was like, Marion, don't go back there behind the bar, and Marion's like, I'm over here.
JEANNE: Wow.
SEAN: But she said it looked just like Marion. Then she said next time she came over to the house, she did some sort of, you know, ritual and led it towards the light.
JEANNE: I think I remember talking to mom about that at the time, too. Maybe that prompted the conversation, and I think she advised me to do what I did, which was to say, you know, you are loved, it's time for you to go to your next place. I think it needed -- I was a very nurturing mother. I think it needed some nurturing.
SEAN: And you never saw this thing again?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Now, Marion -- are you familiar with Marion's, you know, ability?
JEANNE: I know, yes.
SEAN: Now, she said the first incident that she had of this kind of psychic ability, she was sitting at the table at Raspe Avenue, the dining room table, with you, and these like misty figures arose out of the table and she seemed to feel that you had saw them too but was trying to tell her not to.
JEANNE: Maybe.
SEAN: That she didn't see them. You know, like, there's nothing to worry about.
JEANNE: Well, I was probably trying to minimize, yeah. But I guess I knew -- I always knew she was psychic, too.
SEAN: Do you feel any of this about your other daughter?
JEANNE: No. Emily?
SEAN: You don't think your other daughter's?
JEANNE: No. Or at least Emily is like, so afraid that she wouldn't trust her mind to go there.
SEAN: Now, your mother has also had psychic abilities, and she gave an extensive interview regarding the haunting, but it was only after Marion's interview that she said, oh, I had all of these sort of things, too, but she didn't feel that they fell within the scope of what we were doing with the blog.
JEANNE: Right. And I haven't listened to Marion's, so this is all --
SEAN: Did you listen to your mother's?
JEANNE: I listened to her first one.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: Did she do two?
SEAN: No, it was two blogs, but one interview. And so it seems that there's at least three generations, you know. It's your daughter -- also Natalie also after Marion's interview started talking about a lot of stuff. In Natalie's case, she felt like she was waiting to talk about this on the second set of interviews when we start dealing with the deaths, that she was going to discuss these incidences.
JEANNE: Well, and I remember mom saying to me that one of her grandmothers was born with a veil, and that was supposed to indicate -- I don't know what that means.
SEAN: That means it's a, what is it, an amnionic sac --
JEANNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SEAN: And that people who are born with that, in theory, are going to have supernatural powers.
JEANNE: Right, rights.
SEAN: Now, it would -- you know, so we've got three generations. Now little Grandmom*** would be the progenitor of this because it seems to be the maternal side. And I do know that she felt that when her husband, her first husband died, that he came to her in a dream, which she did not view as a dream. She felt that it was really him.
JEANNE: Right. I remember her telling me that, yeah.
SEAN: Yeah. And that was the time that he had died.
JEANNE: And she told me she forgave him.
SEAN: Yeah. He asked for her forgiveness and she forgave him. So that's -- so I'm wondering, did you know if Grandmom ever --
JEANNE: I don't think she did. I don't think she ever had psychic abilities.
SEAN: Well, if she did, do you think she would even tell you?
JEANNE: I think I would know.
SEAN: You think you would have known?
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Do you know about your mother?
JEANNE: Mmhm, yeah.
SEAN: Okay.
JEANNE: Okay, are we done?
SEAN: No, we're not done yet. I do want to ask you a few more questions. So you saw the red eyes on the second floor?
JEANNE: No, the only place was in the Hell Hole.
SEAN: And it never spoke to you --
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: -- with a voice?
JEANNE: No, I never heard a voice.
SEAN: It never --
DEBBIE: You did mention something about you felt like it was old world. Did you think when you said that, could it be an Egyptian cat?
JEANNE: I don't know. That doesn't ring true.
SEAN: No, that was something that your mother had said.
JEANNE: Okay.
SEAN: She said it was like a cat that you would see drawn on an Egyptian tomb.
JEANNE: Yeah, it was like a big black cat, like a leopard type, but smooth. Well, it was black. I mean black.
SEAN: And alive.
JEANNE: Oh, and alive. Yes, that was the only -- the first and only time I actually had something, and with someone there with me. It was not a dream.
SEAN: And did it snarl at you or --
JEANNE: No. I mean, no, we just saw it coming and we were out.
SEAN: Was it moving fast or slow?
JEANNE: It was moving slow.
DEBBIE: Did it have teeth?
JEANNE: I didn't see teeth.
SEAN: So that was the only time it manifested itself in sort of a physical form? It didn't manifest itself in any way in a human shape at any time, would you say?
JEANNE: No.
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| Jeanne in the master bedroom |
SEAN: John saw it as a cloaked figure in his bedroom, often coming in through the door.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Or through the wall from Pops' room, not your room.
JEANNE: Ah. But to me, that's where it came from, the corner of my room from where the door -- corner of the door, and then what would have been John's room.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: Like, that's where it would come up. That's weird. So he saw a cloaked figure, too?
SEAN: Yes, he saw a cloaked figure as well.
JEANNE: I wonder if that -- that could have been the same.
SEAN: And I will also say that, and I don't know how much of this I put up on the interview, is that Natalie saw red eyes upstairs. I forgot whether -- did you see red eyes in the closet upstairs?
JEANNE: In my closet?
SEAN: No, upstairs in the Hell Room, Hell Hole.
JEANNE: That's what I'm saying, the cat with the red eyes, yeah.
SEAN: Okay, the cat had it. Okay.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: Did you ever experience the presence of the entity away from the street, away from the house itself?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: You never felt it away?
JEANNE: Well, let me say, it was more like I would -- I never actually felt it, but I would almost hear it in my mind. But no, it never -- it was like, maybe I felt like I took a little piece of it with me sometimes. Like, there were -- I would be -- I remember the Pula house. I would be there and I'd feel like it was there with me, but it wasn't in the house. It was there with me.
SEAN: Mmhm. Do you think you took it elsewhere with you?
JEANNE: I don't think I took it. I think it came.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: There was no invitation on my end.
SEAN: Yes. So here's the big question: Do you think this could be in any way responsible, at least for the mental state of your siblings when they died?
JEANNE: I don't know. I wish I could say I thought I did, but I really don't. I don't know.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that's the honest answer.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: But I do just remember that when Mike [Last Name Withheld] said about John, that John was hearing voices up when he was in the --
JEANNE: John or Mark?
SEAN: Sorry, not John. Mark. I can remember what Mike said about Mark hearing the voices of his mother and his grandmother while he was up in that room, saying that they were trying to put him away.
JEANNE: Well, I also remember mom talking about when she was up in that room when it was that sewing room and she was hearing someone knock on the front door downstairs and it was the summer and she could hear, and you know, family friend Jeff, that he was -- it was him down there knocking on the door, Hey Ms. Murph, can I come in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just come on in. And then like, quickly thereafter, like a second she could hear out in the hallway, Clara. She had invited that thing in, thinking it was Jeff.
SEAN: Well, Natalie also reports hearing mimicked voices. It would mainly be the voice of your mother, Clara. And someone else also heard mimicked voices.
JEANNE: No, I never.
SEAN: But here's one more thing about cats before we go. John would say he would have the girls over, his friends, and they would go downstairs to get something to drink, and when they came back, they were like, oh, you have -- that's a very cute cat you have.
JEANNE: Wow.
SEAN: It was on the first floor but it was like a -- it was like a kitty cat.
JEANNE: I believe that. I would absolutely -- that sounds like them.
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| Young Jeanne with a cat at 21 Helens Avenue. Whose cat is it? |
SEAN: Yeah, but it's interesting that this is the physical manifestation, because let it be known, we never owned a cat.
JEANNE: No, we never had a cat.
SEAN: And we never had a cat in the house, to my knowledge.
JEANNE: Never.
SEAN: And so if they were seeing a cat, it's a physical manifestation of whatever was in the house.