The musings of Sean Paul Murphy: Editor, Producer, Screenwriter, Author. Or, Hollywood -- and beyond -- as seen from an odd little corner of northeast Baltimore, Maryland.
I have do have an overarching plan regarding my blogs about the haunting of 21 St. Helens Avenue. Once I have gathered all of the evidence, I plan to interview people with various religious and secular viewpoints to help me draw my final conclusions.
Adam Schubert, of Theological Theory, beat me to the punch. He read the blogs and wanted to discuss the theological implications of the events with me. I happily agreed. I had met him on Twitter a while ago and found some of his thoughts and theories intriguing, including a recent videocast where he speculated whether Satan could be saved. See it here.
Adam and I talked for over ninety minutes, but he trimmed me down to about half that. I wish someone could do that to my waistline (again). I was also amused how he used the footage I had shot for my Introduction to Film class in college (which I had posted) as an opening. The behind the scenes footage at the end is fun, too. As for the rest of the interview.... I'll let you be the judge, but I liked it.
Here's the interview, and be sure to subscribe to his channel:
My novel Chapel Street was inspired by the haunting. You can currently buy the Kindle and paperback at Amazon and the Nook, paperback and hardcover at Barnes & Noble.
My upcoming novel Chapel Streetwas inspired by my experiences growing up in a "haunted" house at 21 St. Helens Avenue* in the Northeast Baltimore neighborhood of Lauraville. This series of blogs provides an oral history of the actual haunting that inspired the book.
This entry is the first of its kind in this series. So far, all of the people I have interviewed were members of my family. That is not the case with Lisa Haynos. She is not a member of the Murphy family, and she never lived at 21 St. Helens Avenue. However, she is a close friend of my youngest brother John and she spent enough time at the house to catch a glimpse of the entity itself, if only through the reflection on a television. This is her story.
Here's a clip from the interview:
The interview was conducted on Skype.** My niece Emily kindly transcribed it. It has been edited for clarity.
SEAN: Could you give us your name and how you became associated with the Murphy family?
LISA: Well, my name's Lisa Haynos, and I met John, the youngest Murphy, I want to say it was maybe 1992 or 1993. And I know it was around Easter. I do remember that. And for years I spent many days there, so... You know, I got to know the whole family pretty well.
LISA: John went to City***, and quite a few friends of mine -- it was like mutual friends. And then I realized, you know, he lived a few streets away from me. I grew up not too far.
SEAN: Okay. So you would say you spent a lot of time at the house on 21 Saint Helens Avenue
LISA: Yes. Yes, I did.
SEAN: Okay. And did you ever have any experiences there that could be viewed as paranormal
LISA: Well, I -- the one that always sticks out is any time -- and I am almost certain that this was prior to my knowledge of it. Any time I would use the bathroom, I guess the second floor -- unless you count the basement, then the third floor. When I would go in -- I didn't usually like to go in there, and being a girl and a teenager, you know, sometimes I'd have a girlfriend go in with me. But all the times that I went in there by myself, I would either say the Our Father or the Hail Marry. And I would ask -- I know this sounds silly, but my guardian angels to shed their light on me. And of course years later I talked to John, and I can't remember the story now, but I know -- well, of course it was remodeled, the bathroom.
SEAN: Yes.
LISA: It just wasn't a good feeling. I get like these feelings. I know that's -- my mother gets them, too. And unfortunately a lot of the times, they're bad feelings, and she'll say to me, Lisa, I'm getting one of my feelings. And I have that too. And so I, I was obviously a lot younger then, but I think that I even had it back then. I just had a bad feeling. I mean, I don't know why else -- I mean, nothing ever happened to me in the bathroom. So that was one of my first experiences.
I remember another time in your mom's bedroom, you know the one right across from the bathroom.
SEAN: Yes. We're calling it the master bedroom.
LISA: The master bedroom, okay. There -- she had birds, and I remember it was -- I don't think it was hanging on the wall. It could have been, but what I remember, it had like a spring to connect the cage to, you know, the hook or whatever it was on. And they were tiny, tiny birds. I don't remember what type of birds, but I just know they were very small. And that's probably -- but that thing violently shook. Like somebody had -- I mean, it was going up and down, the whole cage, and swinging. There were no windows open. I mean, there was no other explanation for it. And don't even ask me why I was in there by myself. Maybe somebody asked me to get something. I don't even know, I don't even remember that far, but I remember that, with the bird cage.
There were other times in John's room, and we spent a lot of time, just us. And I remember being in his room, I don't know, he would go to get a drink or go to the bathroom or whatever, and I can remember the TV -- because we usually would listen to music, but I remember seeing things pass behind me in the chair. Like --
SEAN: You'd be in the chair and in the reflection of the TV you saw something?
LISA: I was in the chair, the television wasn't on, and I could see something move back and forth behind me.
SEAN: Now, where would this be in position -- because you know, for -- you know, the furnishings of the room and how things were changed oftentimes, what was behind you? Was it the wall with the door?
LISA: No, it was the wall --
SEAN: To my mother's bedroom?
LISA: Facing the side of the house. Like, my back was to the side of the house, that side window that was in that bedroom. You had one in the front and then that one on the side of his bed.
SEAN: You were facing the door?
LISA: Yes. Yes, I was. And I think -- I want to say that the television was to the right of the door.
SEAN: Okay. So in other words, you would be -- and there was no room behind you for anything to pass either?
LISA: No, no. I mean, it would clearly -- it was almost like walking. You know what I mean? And sometimes it would happen quicker than others, sometimes it was like out of the corner of my eye. And then I guess as I would be more aware of it, I would see, you know -- and I can't even -- like, it was just something dark. Tall, dark, shaped somewhat I guess like a person, but not -- I mean, I can't say that for sure.
SEAN: Did it give any impression of gender, male or female?
LISA: You know, I want to say male. I don't even know why I want to say that. But yeah, I don't even know why I want to say that. That's strange. You know, I'd never thought about that till just now, but male just popped up. I don't know.
SEAN: That's generally the impression people have been having of it, is that they don't think it has a gender, but if it had a gender, it was male.
LISA: Right.
SEAN: Some people say because of its size.
John and some friends at the Polyester Party.
LISA: Right. Yeah. I will say something else, and I know this is going to sound absolutely crazy, because I don't want it to sound -- I don't know, not pompous or -- I always -- now, maybe it was because I would often pray, I don't know, but I had -- there was something in me that kind of felt like it couldn't bother me, do you know what I mean? Like it couldn't -- and I don't know why. There's no reason for it. And again, it probably sounds crazy or arrogant, maybe that's the right word, I don't know. But just that it couldn't really mess with me too much. Do you know what I mean?
SEAN: Yeah, I had a similar relationship with it after a while. Initially it was messing with me, but after a great deal of prayer, it would no longer have the capability to mess with me particularly dramatically.
LISA: Maybe it was that I could know it was there, do you know what I mean? Like, I am here. Maybe that's -- I don't know.
SEAN: Yeah. So did you mention these incidents to John?
LISA: You know what, it's really funny, I don't think I ever did. There was another incident one time where I was downstairs in the dining room, and the ceiling fan -- and I was actually with our friend Naomi. And the ceiling fan wasn't on, the windows were closed, and you know like the chains, they started swinging back and forth, back and forth. And I remember we both looked at each other like, you know. Anyway. So that was another thing.
SEAN: So it was just two, perhaps, down there?
LISA: What was that?
SEAN: Did most of these things that happened to you happen to you while you were alone at the house?
LISA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like when John had left the room or when I was in that bathroom.
SEAN: Did you see any cats in the house?
LISA: I don't think so. I don't think so.
SEAN: Did you listen to John's interview?
LISA: No, I haven't yet.
SEAN: Because he said he had some female guests who went down to the first floor to get something to drink and when they came back, they said they saw a cat on the first floor.
LISA: Oh, wow.
SEAN: They were in the dining room and the cat was I believe in the -- you know, the organ room.
LISA: Right, right.
SEAN: But that wasn't you or you have no memory of that?
LISA: No, no.
SEAN: Okay. That was a kind of a telling thing. Because other people have seen cats at the house.
LISA: Absolutely, yeah. You know, it's funny, I don't know why I just thought about this. John one time, he may have mentioned this, or probably not, but one time he said -- I don't know if he said he was dreaming and that he physically woke up, but he looked out the window on the side of that house, the side of the house where -- because his bed was kind of up against that corner. And he said that I was out there floating. I was wearing all white and I don't know what -- I don't know if I said anything. And then he said he went to the front window to look out, you know, mutual friends of ours were out there just hanging out, doing their thing. It was just kind of weird. I remember him telling me that.
SEAN: That's an interesting story. I don't know what could have inspired it. That is interesting, I'm going to ask John if he has any memory of that before I put your thing through there.
LISA: Right.
SEAN: So were there any other incidents you can recall?
LISA: No. Just -- like I said, the worst feeling was in that bathroom. I don't know what it was. And for some reason, since you asked male or female, and again, this is me, I had never really thought about it. For some reason in that bathroom, I'd feel more female, if that makes any kind of sense at all.
SEAN: Well, it's good to know what you're feeling. And do you feel that -- I mean, obviously you saw some sort of shadow-ish person.
LISA: Right.
SEAN: Or reflection of one moving behind you.
LISA: Right.
SEAN: And you feel you have some sort of psychic ability or psychic discernment?
LISA: Something. I have something. I mean, I even get -- now, my mother, she's really good. Like the phone could ring and my mother -- you know, she could say, oh, such and such has passed away or something happened. You know what I mean? And she's right. So I have not been like that good, but pretty close. Yeah, I would say that I had -- it's just an intuition. Maybe I need to learn how to get more in tune with it. I don't know. Again, some people may --
SEAN: Or maybe not.
LISA: Right, or maybe not. But I don't really think -- I don't often -- maybe because I -- I don't know.
SEAN: So the question is, do you feel that whatever you experienced in John's room was different than what -- I mean, do you think it's possibly two different things? One thing that was in John's room and the other thing that gave you the feeling in the bathroom? Or do you think it's possibly the same thing?
LISA: You know what, that's a good question, and I've never thought of that either. I mean, I tend to think more of the same, but I don't know.
SEAN: So you feel that it was trying -- you know, kind of to make its presence know?
LISA: Yeah, that's the only thing I can think of, because I do know a lot of John's stories because we talked about it years ago.
SEAN: While he was still in the house or afterwards?
LISA: Oh, yeah, he was still living there, and I know it wasn't something that he shared with just anybody. I know that Joe and Jeff knew quite a bit because of their own experiences. But yeah, I talked to him a lot about it. He told a lot of stories.
SEAN: Now, when you were -- did you ever go over when he was in the basement?
LISA: Yep, I did.
SEAN: Did you ever have any feelings or impressions while you were in the basement?
LISA: I didn't like that bedroom. I don't know why. I know that it wasn't always -- do you know what I mean?
SEAN: Yeah.
LISA: I didn't like the bedroom. I don't know why. And there's no particular reason why, but I don't know.
SEAN: I think everyone kind of felt that bedroom was creepy, but I don't know whether it's simply because it only had that one high window so it was like --
LISA: Yeah. I mean, I lived in an apartment. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I didn't really -- we never spent -- we were always in the living room when I was there.
SEAN: John told me he essentially slept in the living room, he didn't -- rarely used the bedroom.
LISA: Yeah, right. I don't ever remember him even going in there to, like, get anything. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I would even sleep over there quite a bit. I would sleep on one sofa, he was on the other one. I don't ever remember him really going in there, like I said, to get anything.
SEAN: Okay. Any final words?
LISA: I can't wait to hear what everybody else has to say. Especially your mom. I mean, John had told me about your mom.
SEAN: So you are the first of the others**** that I have interviewed, and I want to thank you for your time.
LISA: I hope it was helpful in some way.
SEAN: No, it definitely was helpful. Because right now, people reading the blog, you will be the first one nonfamily member to say that they experienced things at the house.
Lisa, today
Notes:
*21 St. Helens Avenue was the original address of the house when it was built. The street name and number changed over time, but I use the original address to protect the privacy of the current owners.
**The coronavirus pandemic has thrown my interview schedule into disorder. I had hoped to do some longer interviews in person, but I have had to delay them.
My novel Chapel Street was inspired by the haunting. You can currently buy the Kindle and paperback at Amazon and the Nook, paperback and hardcover at Barnes & Noble.
My upcoming novel Chapel Streetwas inspired by my experiences growing up in a "haunted" house at 21 St. Helens Avenue* in the Northeast Baltimore neighborhood of Lauraville. This series of blogs provides an oral history of the actual haunting that inspired the book. This entry consists of the second half of an interview with my sister Jeanne.
The first half of my sister's interview detailed her transaction with the entity. Her daughter Marion also described, in her interview, a perceived of offer from it. Those stories surprised me, but I must confess that I felt a similar transactional pull from the entity.
As I related in my story, I challenged it once, saying out loud, "There's nothing in here. If there was, it would turn on the light." And it did. I perceived that act as an invitation. I felt it was saying, in my mind, "Did you like that? Do you want to see what else I can do?" Fortunately, I already knew it too well to take the bait.
I had a similar experience when I began writing these blogs. I was trying to find the full tape of the EVP** my niece Natalie recorded in The Hell Room, or, as some call it, The Hell Hole. I felt a strange urge to do an EVP myself. I initially dismissed the thought since we no longer owned the house. Then, as if from an outside source, came the thought: "Don't worry. It will come to you where ever you are." For a couple of weeks, I felt intense pressure to do an EVP. When I resisted, a new thought came to me from an outside source. "Do you want to know what happened to Mark and Laurie? Go to their graves and do an EVP there and you'll find out."
I definitely wasn't going to fall for that! I knew one thing: Even if I went to the graves and got a recording, it would not be my siblings. And whatever was said would be a lie.
Those incidents prove to me that the entity is indeed intelligent. It was/is conscious of us. It watched us and studied us. It was/is willing to offer us something to get what it wanted. And what does it want? My investigation isn't over yet, but I stand by my initial thoughts. I believe it wanted to isolate us, both spiritually and psychologically, and destroy us.
My wife Deborah, and Jeanne's dog Daisy, were also present for the interview. My niece Emily kindly transcribed it. It has been edited for clarity.
SEAN: Now, did you hear furniture moving at any time?
JEANNE: You know, people talk about that. I don't know if I heard -- I don't think I actually heard furniture moving.
SEAN: Did you hear any voices like muttering but you couldn't understand what they were saying?
JEANNE: I don't know. I'd have to think about that. I'd have to think about that.
SEAN: Now, you were saying it was kind of dealing with you. This was all mental. Did you actually hear words or was it just a feeling?
JEANNE: No, it was just all in here (taps temple).
SEAN: Yes. Now, here's another thing. Did you ever feel suicidal in the house?
JEANNE: I was very suicidal in that house.
SEAN: Was there any -- did you ever attempt to kill yourself?
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: You did attempt to kill yourself?
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: Do you mind going into that?
JEANNE: Well, there were many times I felt like it and I would just do dumb things.
SEAN: What do you mean by dumb things?
JEANNE: Well, let me tell you about -- I just remember one time I had been out and I came home and it was dark and the doors were locked. And I just remember feeling like this, like rage almost or something. And then like it all taken away or something. Something really... And I went down to the basement where there were the glass louver doors and I just threw myself back into it. If you remember, those were broken.
SEAN: Yeah. Would you say that you were in control of your mind at that time?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Now, were there any other events, anything that physically happened to you that you would think, had -- you know, that was averted, obviously, because you were alive, that if it had happened, it would have looked like you had killed yourself?
JEANNE: I was -- it wasn't going to make -- it wouldn't have, like, knocked me over to make it look like a suicide. I would have killed myself. Like, it would take you to this dark place. Like, I really should have been on some meds. Yeah. It was hard. I lived my life very risky because I didn't really care.
SEAN: I will say, you were probably not the only person feeling that way in the house.
JEANNE: Yeah.
SEAN: Yeah, because -- it's hard to articulate. So did this continue, these suicidal feelings continue after, say, you left the house?
JEANNE: Well, when I left the house, then it was a whole new chapter in my life. So I had kids very quickly.
SEAN: But if you were suffering from mental illness, even in the fact that you had a new life--
JEANNE: I think it impacted me. I think depression did impact me, but never to that degree.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that's good. Now, you never discussed it with Laurie, you never discussed -- you must have discussed it with somebody, because I remember hearing stories about the organ. And I think I heard it once, but I think I only heard like a single note.
JEANNE: Yeah.
SEAN: Like a (music note).
JEANNE: So I guess at some level --
SEAN: And I'm on the third floor, so for all I know, I think the house is empty, but for all I know, someone's there.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: You know what I mean?
JEANNE: Yeah, right, so you may have heard, maybe I was down playing it and you didn't know if I was there or not.
SEAN: Yeah, or if someone just walked by -- well, it isn't like you could just walk by and play it because it was a pump organ.
JEANNE: Right. You needed your feet.
SEAN: It isn't like you could accidentally put your finger on it and play it.
JEANNE: So I guess let me clarify. I never told anyone those details. And honestly, the house had this way of like, when you'd wake up in the morning, you'd wonder if that had ever really happened. You know, it had that way. And then I'd find myself in the position, like the thing again, I'd be like, shit, it is real, or I'm remembering two things right now. Like, I don't -- so it was almost like, you had to be in that state of fear and anxiety to truly talk about it, but I never did that. Like, maybe we said like, oh, you know, the closet, watch out. But it was never detailed. I never sat with any of my siblings and said there's a thing in the closet. Like, we may have spoken generalities.
Now, my friend Beth, who's still my best friend, I would certainly talk to her about it.
SEAN: And we will try to talk to Beth about this.
Beth and Jeanne, in the entrance hall
JEANNE: Yeah, good.
SEAN: Now, you did say that it was predominantly in the closet. In that area. Did you feel any other presences -- and let's keep this right now until before your trip to England.
JEANNE: Okay.
SEAN: Because I want to deal with after England at another time. Now that you're saying you had psychic powers, did you feel that there was more than one thing -- well, you did say that you felt that that thing that was over your bed was different than the thing that was in the closet.
JEANNE: Yes.
SEAN: Did --
JEANNE: I always just in my mind's eye, what I always thought was that it was of the land. That it was of the hill. That it started at our house or it ended at our house and it went up four houses up to the [landmark].*** That it was somehow on that hill. That's just in my mind's eye, like it was always coming from that direction.
SEAN: It's funny you say that, because I always felt the same way, too. I always thought, and later we had some evidence that it was in the house immediately next to us. But I just never felt that it was just those two houses.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: I thought it was also the four houses up to the [landmark].
JEANNE: Yeah, I felt like that too.
SEAN: We felt that independently.
JEANNE: Yeah. I mean, this is the first time I'm hearing you had that feeling, too. But I always felt like it had been some kind of a holy land or something and a group of people had lived there and -- anyway. I don't know.
SEAN: So did you ever feel that there was presence of a human ghost in the house?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Did you feel there was ever the presence of a neutral entity?
JEANNE: Maybe.
SEAN: So Laurie never discussed any of this stuff with you herself?
JEANNE: Uh-uh.
SEAN: Okay. So you went to England in what month?
JEANNE: June 26th, 1985.
SEAN: And you came back briefly after about two months?
JEANNE: August 26th, 1985.
SEAN: And then you went back to England and you met your future ex --
JEANNE: Well, I'd met him the first time.
SEAN: Okay.
JEANNE: Went to be back with him.
SEAN: Okay. And then you came back. And in the house, I would say while you were away, things had shifted at the house in a way that whatever it was in the house became more active.
Jeanne and her ex-husband and her in-laws.
JEANNE: I don't know anything, you know, about what happened when I was away. But Jon and I were actually married but we didn't tell anyone, so my mother had us in separate bedrooms, so I had my bedroom and he had the upstairs front bedroom.
SEAN: Which was?
JEANNE: Which is the Hell Hole. We didn't know that at the time. This is how we found out. So of course I remember one night, I snuck up there and we were in the bed together, and I don't know if we both woke up at the same time or I don't know, maybe we hadn't even been asleep. Anyway, we were both in bed and we sat up, and I swear to God, there was a corner cupboard, closet directly in front of us.
SEAN: This was the stand up closet, not the cubbyhole, or was it the cubbyhole?
JEANNE: No, it was the stand up one. And both of us saw. It was dark, you know, it was night, both of us saw a black cat. Not a kitty, like a leopard. Like a big black cat. And it had red eyes.
SEAN: As big as a dog?
JEANNE: Bigger -- it probably -- oh, as big as a big dog, maybe. And it had red eyes. We're both sitting here watching this, seeing this happen. And it, like, started coming towards us, and my thought was, it wants my baby. I was pregnant, no one knew it, and we screamed and ran the hell out of there. And I would -- I never spent the night there again. That probably prompted us to tell everyone we were married, because we were moving out. We were looking to move out. We probably were only in there about three weeks when we came back from England before we got our apartment.
SEAN: I do want to talk something about Echodale, but before we do -- now, this thing, did it come out of the closet?
JEANNE: Yes. It was standing there. We could see it there, standing there, and it coming towards us, yes.
SEAN: And what happened? You just ran?
JEANNE: We -- I don't know, somehow a spell broke and we got the heck out of there.
SEAN: Now, would it surprise you to know that your mother also saw a large cat-like creature come out of that closet?
JEANNE: I think I'd heard that, but only since we moved out of the house.
SEAN: And other people have also seen cat-like creatures in the house.
JEANNE: And I just want to say, I had never seen a personification before this.
SEAN: Yeah. And it seems like of this large cat creature, anybody we've talked to has only seen it in the Hell Hole.
JEANNE: Right. Well, that kind of fits with what I'm saying that there were certain things in certain places. But I feel like if it was in the closet, if it was in my bedroom closet down there, it was everywhere in the house.
SEAN: That's what I was going to ask. Do you think that was the same thing?
JEANNE: No. I think they were of the same world or whatever, but no, that was a different thing.
SEAN: That's a conclusion I'm drawing. Because it seemed like this thing would manifest itself in two ways. Up in the Hell Room, Hell Hole, whatever you want to call it... It would either manifest itself as a cat or sometimes as a dark shape with red eyes. Did you ever see the red eyes in the dark shape in your bedroom?
JEANNE: No. Like I say, that thing that was there was never in anywhere else in the house. That was its own thing. And like I say, it's of the other things. Because I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if every room had its own thing because the feeling in that house -- like, that house lived a life of its own and we would skim on it, is how I feel.
SEAN: And that's how I feel, too. Now, don't think that you triggered it or my mother or Ted or me or anyone.
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: I don't think any of us triggered it. I think it was there.
JEANNE: Well, I think it was there -- oh, it was definitely there. I didn't invent it. I mean, it was there, but I think it took a curious mind and someone asking questions and the energy of a young family and a young person who's looking to find herself. Like I say, I wasn't out running around in the neighborhood. I was there at the house.
SEAN: Well, I'm not so sure, but in the case of poltergeist activities are usually associated with people, you know, like pre-teenagers.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: That seems to be the energy for a lot of poltergeist experiences.
JEANNE: Well, I think this thing, you had to have been in a certain frame of mind. I could see that people visiting the house would never know that there was anything in that house.
SEAN: Well, obviously.
JEANNE: But it was something about living there, and not only living there, but being, I don't want to say bored, but not being busy. If you were busy, if you were like, oh, I've got this to do and that to do, you wouldn't feel it. It was just when you were, like, still, is when you would feel it.
SEAN: Yeah. It is interesting, because Dougie claims to never have experienced it.
JEANNE: Uh-huh, and I believe that.
SEAN: But he was only there a couple years.
JEANNE: I don't even think he was there a couple years, was he?
SEAN: I would think that probably at least two years.
JEANNE: Yeah, but he was always out in the neighborhood. He never hung out at the house at all.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: And he was, you know, experimenting with illegal substances.
SEAN: Yeah. I know I asked you about Laurie. Did you ever talk to Mark about any of these incidences in the house?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Okay. How about your father?
JEANNE: (laughs) No.
SEAN: Okay. So you moved out, and at some point you moved to Echodale Avenue before you moved to your final house at Raspe Avenue.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Was there some sort of entity at --
JEANNE: Did somebody tell you about this?
SEAN: Yes. Was there some sort of entity at the Echodale Avenue house?
JEANNE: Well, let me tell you what I remember most. There may have been an entity there, but what was startling to me is that I have two children, and you know, we'd be outside or whatever, and then I realized that at least for the past couple weeks, I had been counting one, two, three. That there was a third one. And one day it hit, like, why am I counting three? I've only got two kids. And I don't know. And I seem to think that was more of a spirit or something of a little girl who needed to have a mommy for a little bit of time.
SEAN: Was it a little girl that looked just like Marion?
JEANNE: I don't know what she looked like. I never saw her, I always just counted her.
SEAN: Because your mother said that she saw her and that she was also at Raspe Avenue as well.
JEANNE: Oh. Oh, I was at Raspe Avenue, and I would feel three. But not the whole time, but I'd feel three kids, too. In my mind, I would count the three.
SEAN: And your mother said she was watching the kids in the basement once and she saw -- she thought Marion had gone behind the bar, and she was like, Marion, don't go back there behind the bar, and Marion's like, I'm over here.
JEANNE: Wow.
SEAN: But she said it looked just like Marion. Then she said next time she came over to the house, she did some sort of, you know, ritual and led it towards the light.
JEANNE: I think I remember talking to mom about that at the time, too. Maybe that prompted the conversation, and I think she advised me to do what I did, which was to say, you know, you are loved, it's time for you to go to your next place. I think it needed -- I was a very nurturing mother. I think it needed some nurturing.
SEAN: And you never saw this thing again?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: Now, Marion -- are you familiar with Marion's, you know, ability?
JEANNE: I know, yes.
SEAN: Now, she said the first incident that she had of this kind of psychic ability, she was sitting at the table at Raspe Avenue, the dining room table, with you, and these like misty figures arose out of the table and she seemed to feel that you had saw them too but was trying to tell her not to.
JEANNE: Maybe.
SEAN: That she didn't see them. You know, like, there's nothing to worry about.
JEANNE: Well, I was probably trying to minimize, yeah. But I guess I knew -- I always knew she was psychic, too.
SEAN: Do you feel any of this about your other daughter?
JEANNE: No. Emily?
SEAN: You don't think your other daughter's?
JEANNE: No. Or at least Emily is like, so afraid that she wouldn't trust her mind to go there.
SEAN: Now, your mother has also had psychic abilities, and she gave an extensive interview regarding the haunting, but it was only after Marion's interview that she said, oh, I had all of these sort of things, too, but she didn't feel that they fell within the scope of what we were doing with the blog.
JEANNE: Right. And I haven't listened to Marion's, so this is all --
SEAN: Did you listen to your mother's?
JEANNE: I listened to her first one.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: Did she do two?
SEAN: No, it was two blogs, but one interview. And so it seems that there's at least three generations, you know. It's your daughter -- also Natalie also after Marion's interview started talking about a lot of stuff. In Natalie's case, she felt like she was waiting to talk about this on the second set of interviews when we start dealing with the deaths, that she was going to discuss these incidences.
JEANNE: Well, and I remember mom saying to me that one of her grandmothers was born with a veil, and that was supposed to indicate -- I don't know what that means.
SEAN: That means it's a, what is it, an amnionic sac --
JEANNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SEAN: And that people who are born with that, in theory, are going to have supernatural powers.
JEANNE: Right, rights.
SEAN: Now, it would -- you know, so we've got three generations. Now little Grandmom*** would be the progenitor of this because it seems to be the maternal side. And I do know that she felt that when her husband, her first husband died, that he came to her in a dream, which she did not view as a dream. She felt that it was really him.
JEANNE: Right. I remember her telling me that, yeah.
SEAN: Yeah. And that was the time that he had died.
JEANNE: And she told me she forgave him.
SEAN: Yeah. He asked for her forgiveness and she forgave him. So that's -- so I'm wondering, did you know if Grandmom ever --
JEANNE: I don't think she did. I don't think she ever had psychic abilities.
SEAN: Well, if she did, do you think she would even tell you?
JEANNE: I think I would know.
SEAN: You think you would have known?
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Do you know about your mother?
JEANNE: Mmhm, yeah.
SEAN: Okay.
JEANNE: Okay, are we done?
SEAN: No, we're not done yet. I do want to ask you a few more questions. So you saw the red eyes on the second floor?
JEANNE: No, the only place was in the Hell Hole.
SEAN: And it never spoke to you --
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: -- with a voice?
JEANNE: No, I never heard a voice.
SEAN: It never --
DEBBIE: You did mention something about you felt like it was old world. Did you think when you said that, could it be an Egyptian cat?
JEANNE: I don't know. That doesn't ring true.
SEAN: No, that was something that your mother had said.
JEANNE: Okay.
SEAN: She said it was like a cat that you would see drawn on an Egyptian tomb.
JEANNE: Yeah, it was like a big black cat, like a leopard type, but smooth. Well, it was black. I mean black.
SEAN: And alive.
JEANNE: Oh, and alive. Yes, that was the only -- the first and only time I actually had something, and with someone there with me. It was not a dream.
SEAN: And did it snarl at you or --
JEANNE: No. I mean, no, we just saw it coming and we were out.
SEAN: Was it moving fast or slow?
JEANNE: It was moving slow.
DEBBIE: Did it have teeth?
JEANNE: I didn't see teeth.
SEAN: So that was the only time it manifested itself in sort of a physical form? It didn't manifest itself in any way in a human shape at any time, would you say?
Jeanne in the master bedroom
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: John saw it as a cloaked figure in his bedroom, often coming in through the door.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: Or through the wall from Pops' room, not your room.
JEANNE: Ah. But to me, that's where it came from, the corner of my room from where the door -- corner of the door, and then what would have been John's room.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: Like, that's where it would come up. That's weird. So he saw a cloaked figure, too?
SEAN: Yes, he saw a cloaked figure as well.
JEANNE: I wonder if that -- that could have been the same.
SEAN: And I will also say that, and I don't know how much of this I put up on the interview, is that Natalie saw red eyes upstairs. I forgot whether -- did you see red eyes in the closet upstairs?
JEANNE: In my closet?
SEAN: No, upstairs in the Hell Room, Hell Hole.
JEANNE: That's what I'm saying, the cat with the red eyes, yeah.
SEAN: Okay, the cat had it. Okay.
JEANNE: Right.
SEAN: Did you ever experience the presence of the entity away from the street, away from the house itself?
JEANNE: No.
SEAN: You never felt it away?
JEANNE: Well, let me say, it was more like I would -- I never actually felt it, but I would almost hear it in my mind. But no, it never -- it was like, maybe I felt like I took a little piece of it with me sometimes. Like, there were -- I would be -- I remember the Pula house. I would be there and I'd feel like it was there with me, but it wasn't in the house. It was there with me.
SEAN: Mmhm. Do you think you took it elsewhere with you?
JEANNE: I don't think I took it. I think it came.
SEAN: Yeah.
JEANNE: There was no invitation on my end.
SEAN: Yes. So here's the big question: Do you think this could be in any way responsible, at least for the mental state of your siblings when they died?
JEANNE: I don't know. I wish I could say I thought I did, but I really don't. I don't know.
SEAN: Okay. Well, that's the honest answer.
JEANNE: Mmhm.
SEAN: But I do just remember that when Mike [Last Name Withheld] said about John, that John was hearing voices up when he was in the --
JEANNE: John or Mark?
SEAN: Sorry, not John. Mark. I can remember what Mike said about Mark hearing the voices of his mother and his grandmother while he was up in that room, saying that they were trying to put him away.
JEANNE: Well, I also remember mom talking about when she was up in that room when it was that sewing room and she was hearing someone knock on the front door downstairs and it was the summer and she could hear, and you know, family friend Jeff, that he was -- it was him down there knocking on the door, Hey Ms. Murph, can I come in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just come on in. And then like, quickly thereafter, like a second she could hear out in the hallway, Clara. She had invited that thing in, thinking it was Jeff.
SEAN: Well, Natalie also reports hearing mimicked voices. It would mainly be the voice of your mother, Clara. And someone else also heard mimicked voices.
JEANNE: No, I never.
SEAN: But here's one more thing about cats before we go. John would say he would have the girls over, his friends, and they would go downstairs to get something to drink, and when they came back, they were like, oh, you have -- that's a very cute cat you have.
JEANNE: Wow.
SEAN: It was on the first floor but it was like a -- it was like a kitty cat.
Young Jeanne with a cat at 21 Helens Avenue.
Whose cat is it?
JEANNE: I believe that. I would absolutely -- that sounds like them.
SEAN: Yeah, but it's interesting that this is the physical manifestation, because let it be known, we never owned a cat.
JEANNE: No, we never had a cat.
SEAN: And we never had a cat in the house, to my knowledge.
JEANNE: Never.
SEAN: And so if they were seeing a cat, it's a physical manifestation of whatever was in the house.
